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What Is A 'Fair Share'?

A fair review might expose it unfair ...

President Obama has consistently suggested our economic health could be corrected if the wealthy paid their "Fair Share."

What is a "Fair Share"?  How is it determined?

If we are expecting some to pay additional taxes because they are wealthy, will there be consequences?

Do legislators consider how they affect the general public, today and over time, or are they only focused on their term?

We, the citizens, need to reconcile how those we elect affect our ability to have sustainable conditions.  What opportunities will survive the actions of a government that intrudes on our personal situations to forward their agenda's?

I am truly interested in how the general public is affected by the government ... are they helping, or hurting your situation?

Jay Sykes February 28, 2013 at 04:17 am
@Lyle Ruble... In your example, "sold the businesses to their kids" prior to death, you likely just 'Cost Shifted' the Inheritance/Estate Tax burden into the Capital Gains Tax burden column.
Your "set up ownership with trusts" example avoids the capital gains tax, as it transfers the assets to trust at 'current fair market net asset value', so the 'appreciated value' from 'date of trust creation' forward avoids the Inheritance / Estate Tax. Any amount transferred to trust, while still alive, counts against ones lifetime Estate Tax exemption amount. FYI: The current Estate tax exemption is just over $5 million/person.( It is inflation indexed and I think it's going to 5.25 million/person next year.) So, a couple can protect over $10 million, Net Asset Value, from the Estate Tax.
Bottom Line February 28, 2013 at 04:26 am
Lyle ... You seem conflicted ... "Why should I benefit from your hard work and success. Shouldn't each generation be personally responsible for their own success? What do you really owe your progeny? As far as I'm concerned, raise your children ... etc. ... I don't know how many successful second generation businesses end up folding because "the kids took it over".
... You shouldn't benefit from my hard work, unless I decide to extend it to you, and my reasons are not pertinent to any one but me. ... should each generation be responsible for their own success? I suspect they should, but you excuse many their responsibility without regard for your own projection that they be responsible, why is that? Further, you, and those that subscribe to your ideology are indifferent to the deficit you leave future generations, why is that? As to my progeny, I owe them nothing beyond the protections and rearing through their youth. That doesn't mean I shouldn't have the right to give them, or any other my fortunes that I have earned. Why should your progeny be able to lay claim to my assets via redistribution? I commend your support of extending values and responsible behavior to our children ... yet you continually exempt some from that expectation. That some lose what they are given is a silly defense.
Bottom Line February 28, 2013 at 04:29 am
As a side comment ... by your measure you have no right to pay for the pizza someone else cannot afford ... you should forfeit that amount to the government so they can decide who deserves it.
Bottom Line February 28, 2013 at 04:37 am
Lyle ,,, you add in other posts that it is incumbent on owners to utilize insurance and other legal means to protect the inheritors .... apparently you would excuse inheritance tax if one is clever and affords the various opportunities that legislators have divined for those aware. Even you must admit the hypocrisy. Shouldn't we eliminate the equivocations?
Bottom Line February 28, 2013 at 04:45 am
Jay ... Thank You for focusing on my inquiry, but I hope you realize that I was suggesting all along that there isn't a "Fair Share", and that legislators have been projecting empty rhetoric to continue their control of an unwary majority.
Simple Economics would correct our plight. A Government that is fixated on ulterior motives has preyed upon our citizens to manipulate our economic condition. We would do well to assert our control on government and afford the benefits of economic growth without their intrusion. Those least among us would benefit the result.
Bottom Line February 28, 2013 at 04:57 am
What if everyone decided to wait for someone else to create wealth and opportunity? Who would be considered evil then?
If WalMart, to pick the most current "enemy of the State" were to withdraw from the economy, what would result? Who would stand to lose the most? Critical thinking is lacking. We, as an affluent Nation, allowed some pretty ridiculous notions to contaminate an economy that would correct itself, if not for intrusion. BTW, Jay (and I find your review correct) ... consider how ridiculous the contortions you provided to explain the process of inheritance via different avenues .... really? .... really???? This is what have become .... pathetic.
Bottom Line February 28, 2013 at 06:15 am
Steve ... what he says is not important .... obviously ... and that what he does ensures the poor are left wanting ... what a pathetic leader.
Jay Sykes February 28, 2013 at 06:19 am
T. Boone Pickens 'sizes-up' the vacuous rhetoric of "fairshare" during an MSNBC Morning Joe visit. I've seen him do this on CNBC too, but the way he handles the MSNBC crowd is always...... entertaining. Nobody frames it better than T.Boone!
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2011/12/07/t-boone-pickens-wants-obama-tell-him-what-his-fair-share-taxes
yomammy February 28, 2013 at 12:00 pm
If you make "too much money" you are on the radar. companies, personal, whatever, If you have (earned) it- they want it. the FSA needs your money to keep up their lifestyle.
Young Conservative February 28, 2013 at 02:39 pm
This is what happens when you allow Liberals to be in charge of the economy.
The U.S. economy grew in the fourth quarter - but just barely - 0.1% http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-economy-grew-01-in-fourth-quarter-2013-02-28?link=MW_latest_news
Steve ® February 28, 2013 at 02:49 pm
You give him too much credit by calling Obama a "leader" The only thing he leads is more division, fear and pain. He is truly pathetic.
Steve ® February 28, 2013 at 02:51 pm
mm mmm mm
Lyle Ruble February 28, 2013 at 03:50 pm
@Bottom Line....Philosophically I don't support inheritance in the way we have allowed it to evolve. I am an advocate of equality of opportunity. My main opposition to inheritance is that it gives an advantage to those who benefit from the accident of birth. If one looks to socio-biology and its impact on positive evolvement of the species, the best is brought out by enduring and coping with external and internal stress. This is the role concept in social organization called exceptionalism. In other words it is where the best of the best rises to the top. We see this played out in athletics over and over again. It doesn't matter that someone is born to a great athlete, each individual starts at the bottom continuously proving themselves over and over again, having the opportunity to achieve greatness on their own. We hold dearly the value of self fulfillment and see that society, in general, benefits from people having to prove themselves. Those that receive large inheritances short circuit the process and do not necessarily deserve the position at the top. For example; would the Koch Brothers be as successful as they are if they would have had to start at the bottom like their father did? Would the inheritors of Sam Walton have been able to accomplish what their father did? One of the problems encountered by children of successful parents is whether or not they could succeed without the success of their parent/s.
Young Conservative February 28, 2013 at 04:00 pm
And I could point to countless heirs who have squandered their inheritance.
Shut up Ruble, you make no sense.
Craig February 28, 2013 at 04:10 pm
Lyle: While I do not agree with you I think I understand your point. Where would Al Gore be without all that family tobacco money, etc?
But why should the Government get it? This will somehow equate to equality of opportunity?
J. B. Schmidt February 28, 2013 at 04:10 pm
@Lyle
Who cares? Whether or not Sam Walton's kids got a lot or a little, makes no difference to me. You are trying to sell some idea that their inheritance has an impact on whether or not I can succeed. That's bull plop. More importantly, you make the example of the professional athlete. There are people who will practice for hours, day, years hoping to gain the abilities that most professional athletes are born with. They have been born with an unequal advantage (genetic inheritance) that the rest of haven't. Watching my kids, it is plain to see that athleticism is an advantage some possess over others. How to propose to equalize that opportunity? In both cases the desire to develop your inheritance is what separates all of us. Many inner city blacks that could go pro choice not to and live the thug life. If the Koch money would have gone to Lindsay Lohan, she would have snorted it long before it could have been put the good use. The difference between Lebron James a street thug is his choice to use his inheritance. The same goes for the Koch brothers. That choice is the American Exceptionalism, equality in opportunity you wish to denounce and destroy. Your post reads as pure envy/jealousy. True to liberal form, materialism makes the man.
GearHead February 28, 2013 at 04:16 pm
@ Bottom Line. By now you've seen that "fair" is a moving target subject to liberal line drawing and definition games. This is why the war on poverty will never by won, because there is always the next version of the Obama phone. Even if it isn't a phone. After all, it isn't fair everyone doesn't have an iPad. You get the drift.
Classes will never be "fully funded" and we always need "smaller" class sizes. Of course we know money has little to do with actual teaching, but it sure helps prop up the institution of education. I've also noticed how big city polititians always clamor for more money for infrastructure, yet the money they receive always ends up being spent on some other pet project. Now that is neither fair nor good stewardship of public (taxpayer-provided) funds.
Lyle Ruble February 28, 2013 at 05:24 pm
@Craig...Thank you for acknowledging you get me point. I don't necessarily think the government should get your inheritance. The proper model is what I think that Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, and Ted Turner are following, to donate their wealth to make the world a better place. They represent only the latest examples of such thinking. Andrew Carnage was one of the first benefactors to society. The Rockefeller Foundation has given to the world and much of it has benefited humanity. Look at the giving of the Walton Family and the Koch Brothers, it has had a positive impact.
My view and philosophy makes it more important to spend one's fortune on making the world a better place. I would much prefer it go somewhere that it could do some good rather than give it up to the government. Something else one needs to look at is what was the purpose of inheritance. Prior to the advent of the nuclear family and welfare programs, inheritance was kept within the extended family to maintain the health and security of the basic structural unit. The extended family functioned as banker, landlord, old age security, child care center, etc. Usually the eldest son of the eldest son was the executor of the economic structural unit. The family owned the wealth, not the individual. Much of what we pay for now to provide essential services were provided for by the family. Also, family need was placed over individual need. We still see this model in Asian and Mid Eastern societies.
Craig February 28, 2013 at 05:56 pm
I agree Lyle.
All are great points. The problem with family owning the wealth as opposed to individuals is the regulations. It is a separate entity that requires oversight, costs, taxation, etc. The person who accumulated the funds has a right to do with them as (s)he sees fit. They can give everything to charity, give it to an individual, or place it in a trust. That should remain their right. Some people have the opinion that trusts are control from the grave, but so is the decision to leave everything to a charity. Family dynamics often dictates what the decision will be.
Lyle Ruble February 28, 2013 at 06:11 pm
@J.B. Schmidt...Please don't take things so literally, the Walton's was just an example. Let me see if I can't show you some examples that might better illustrate my point.
One of your children has the desire to go to one of the service academies. They work hard and achieve the academic record required, they are reasonably athletic and show a great amount of self discipline. They apply to your local congressman to get an appointment. At the same time a kid that doesn't have your kid's qualifications also applies, but his or her parents are big political contributors to the congressman and the congressman sponsors their kid. In this case merit doesn't matter, but social position and wealth does. Another example is someone who applies to medical school. They have all the right qualifications, tested very well on the MCAT. Another student not quite as qualified as your child also applies and gets in when your child doesn't. The other child's parent is a physician that has been contributing thousands a year to their alma mater. Did wealth and position not limit your child's opportunity? This is not anything to do with envy, but everything to do with stacking the deck to assure you have or your progeny have a winning hand. If you, as you claim, support the idea that with enough hard work and desire, one can succeed; maybe not when privilege and position is unequally distributed. Inherited wealth is a means for unequal privilege.
J. B. Schmidt February 28, 2013 at 06:25 pm
@Lyle
When one of children fails to get the things you mentioned because of an affirmative action requirement, will you claim the same thing? Or is that equality in action? If my child is that obsessed with the material, then I already failed. They are entitled to no position in life and at any number of crossroads life will slap them down. You are basing your justification for fairness on purely material things. The examples you list are impossible to stop and they happen at every level of education and career path. My family faced it in an elementary school. By attempting to restrict the passage of inheritance as a means to end favoritism, is like trying to kill a weed by cutting off the top 1/4 of the plant. If you restrict inheritance, people who wish their wealth be given to their kids will find other ways of doing it. The expansion of the tax code always produces those that find a way out of paying. Not to mention, the actions you list will continue, because even if you remove the wealth, something like fame or celebrity status will replace it. In the end, you have made an emotional piece of legislation that feels good, but has no bite. It would never correct the problems you list.
Craig February 28, 2013 at 06:31 pm
Lyle: Serious question for you.
I am broke, my kid is in the process of preparing to take her MCATs. From what you said, am I correct to assume she is screwed and has no chance? Should I be looking for someone to sell a kidney to so I have the means to grease a wheel?
Lyle Ruble February 28, 2013 at 09:07 pm
@J.B. Schmidt....G-d's will!
Lyle Ruble February 28, 2013 at 09:10 pm
@Craig....Fortunately, there are other options such as Public Health and military scholarships for training physicians. No need to sell a kidney.
Craig February 28, 2013 at 09:14 pm
Lyle: At this point, I'm all in at 23 grand a year. I'd double down if I have to.
No one would take my organs anyway, they are out of tune.
Bottom Line March 1, 2013 at 02:58 am
Lyle ... you claim the States and Local communities were able and chose not to take care of issues. If the citizens made a choice you should respect that, they are more intimately aware of their conditions than you or the Federal Government. Some look at issues differently than you do, and you haven't the right to do more than plead your case. Mandating your measure of charity fails to respect the rights and wishes of those States and Municipalities.
Lyle Ruble March 1, 2013 at 11:33 am
@Bottom Line...This is a question of sovereignty and priority. It's been pretty well documented what the minimum needs are for survival. The sovereign community has a duty, morally and legally, to assure survival and security needs are met. For those communities and or states that either choose or are unable to meet those needs, then it is the role of the federal government to move in and meet the needs. The practice of segregation and Jim Crow laws are a prime example. We can review our history through centuries that demonstrate the failure. Your whole idea of fair share is misleading and should focus on the question of what are the minimum needs everyone has a right to expect by simply being a citizen of this nation.
Jay Sykes March 1, 2013 at 05:56 pm
Lyle Sez ... "Your whole idea of fair share is misleading and should focus on the question of what are the minimum needs everyone has a right to expect by simply being a citizen of this nation."
Lyle, it our President, not Bottom Line, that is tossing around the words 'fairshare', sans clear reasonable definition;that is in-fact what created the need his blog post. It is, in-fact, the President that is misleading with his usage of 'fairshare'. I have not heard the President tie 'fairshare' to anything other than 'Pay MORE Taxes'. I'd like to see a Lexus/Nexus of the Presidential use of 'fairshare' . I'd bet we would only find 'fairshare' tied to paying more taxes;never to your point Lyle, 'focus on the question of what are the minimum needs everyone has a right to expect by simply being a citizen of this nation.' That Lyle, sadly, very sadly, is the very definition 'Presidential Failure to Lead'
Lyle Ruble March 1, 2013 at 06:29 pm
@Jay Sykes....I don't think in terms of fair share and whether Obama or Bottom Line uses the term is meaningless to me. I also don't blindly support everything the President claims or proposes. As usual, my support is for meeting survival and security needs. Whether one is able to achieve is entirely up to them as long they have a reasonable opportunity to do so.
Jay Sykes March 1, 2013 at 09:08 pm
@Lyle... I did not intend to suggest that you unilaterally support the President;only point out that the man with the bully pulpit shapes the debate and defines the terms. What you, or I, say will not change that one iota. The way the President is discussing 'fairshare' reminds me of Lewis Carroll's Humpty Dumpty:
"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master that's all." Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again: "They've a temper, some of them—particularly verbs, they're the proudest—adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs—however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

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Rees; When the Sacred village Board cloaked the building of a new Village hall for over $17 million,Read More it was brought to there attention to build TWO new fire stations. One south, one north. Instead they built the Taj Mahal and a distance fire station. Maybe the two remaining Trustees could orate their decision for the residents.
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Mt Pleasant is in need of competent people ! Who would of built the new headquarter on 90th St ?Read More Wouldn't of it made sense to build by the Fire Department on HWY 31 ? Would of made sense you would of at least met the village taxpayer half way ! Oh another thing I noticed Chief Police do your patrol officers think its cool with there phone in there hand while driving its very obvious there not talking business ! If any one gets hit by a patrol car make sure they receive a ticket for inattentive driving !
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Typical John. Long on vitriol and talking points but no ideas of his own. And what have you done forRead More your district this term John? Have you met with the Boards in the Villages and Towns you represent? Listening sessions in Mt Pleasant or Sturtevant? Que the crickets.......
C. Sanders June 13, 2013 at 12:07 am
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Hmm "make a stronger Wisconsin than ever". Yup Scottie, 44th in the country is the beat!Read More Soon 50th? Inverted math? "The recall brought us closer together" You won spending 6-1 using a majority of out of state $, had 5 times longer to campaign and won because one side failed to confront the second battle of recalls as a whole vs Scotties recall. "For decades we will be able to look up public officials and hopefuls, teachers, neighbors, interviewees" so much for freedom of speech & the recall Scott Walker used to become Milwaukee's head of busted political officials. Scott you were hired to represent all citizens of Wisconsin.
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